Ideas and suggestions

[GrizzlyBear]

There has been interest in giving ideas and suggestions to the Forest Service on ways to improve the Trail System. The system is not fully operational yet, and it is meant to be workable.  If anyone has any ways that it can be improved, post it here.  It will be seen by the right people.

[Eworm]

There has been interest in giving ideas and suggestions to the Forest Service on ways to improve the Trail System. The system is not fully operational yet, and it is meant to be workable.  If anyone has any ways that it can be improved, post it here.  It will be seen by the right people.

Sport quads are a huge part of what we love to do and we need to be sure we stick together (sports, 4x4's, dirt bikes, kubota's, rhino's, pilot's etc,etc). This plan does not seem to include anything that will accomodate to the oridinary sport quad rider. If the place is not sport quad friendly then there will be a lot of riders/supporters not willing to abide by the rules and not happy.......
IMO the better thing to do would be to have marked trails. IE: Green (easiest and let's say 25MPH), Blue (more difficult and 40MPH) and then Black (Most difficult, with no speed limit).
Also, two way trails are dangerous IMO (in Ocala only). The landscape is unique with it's tght, wooded trails and many 90 degree turns that can contribute to many accidents on a small, two way trail system.

Grizz: Please make sure there is something for the cross country, enduro kind of rider. THERE ARE A BUNCH!!!

[Ride1Rob]

I like his opinions    . Good job E Worm!

[GrizzlyBear]

One of the rides on the 30th will be a long ride for sport quads.  I need a couple of people to guide it and lead it, but they need to become very familiar with the trail before hand.  If anyone is willing, let me know and I wiil take them on a ride.

[Eworm]

One of the rides on the 30th will be a long ride for sport quads.  I need a couple of people to guide it and lead it, but they need to become very familiar with the trail before hand.  If anyone is willing, let me know and I wiil take them on a ride.

I will be there and lead or whatever. However, a two way trail system in Ocala is dangerous on any quad. Grizz: please provide us with the contact info for the appropriate parties involved in making these decisions... 

[eldiablo64]

i think they should open up atleast 2 of the pits for riding.all they are is old sink holes anyway what kind of habitat would get ruined?

[logger]

I hate to be the one to disagree with you, but obvisouly you have not been on the trails. I haven't seen any tight, wooded trails on the trail system. If there are they maybe a small part of the trail. Just like one of the 10 tips for responsible riding - Ride slowly on crowded trails - Just like a busy highway, when trails are crowded you must move slowly to ensure safety for all trail users. The trails you might be on maybe multi use trails also, so you have to be careful, and courtesy to all riders. Remember the forest is for all users, if you abuse it it might go away. If you ride the trails the way your drive your car, you should be fine. That might be a big should, depends on how you drive on the road.??

[Also, two way trails are dangerous IMO (in Ocala only). The landscape is unique with it's tght, wooded trails and many 90 degree turns that can contribute to many accidents on a small, two way trail system.

Grizz: Please make sure there is something for the cross country, enduro kind of rider. THERE ARE A BUNCH!!!


[/quote]

[Eworm]

I hate to be the one to disagree with you, but obvisouly you have not been on the trails. I haven't seen any tight, wooded trails on the trail system. If there are they maybe a small part of the trail. Just like one of the 10 tips for responsible riding - Ride slowly on crowded trails - Just like a busy highway, when trails are crowded you must move slowly to ensure safety for all trail users. The trails you might be on maybe multi use trails also, so you have to be careful, and courtesy to all riders. Remember the forest is for all users, if you abuse it it might go away. If you ride the trails the way your drive your car, you should be fine. That might be a big should, depends on how you drive on the road.??

[Also, two way trails are dangerous IMO (in Ocala only). The landscape is unique with it's tght, wooded trails and many 90 degree turns that can contribute to many accidents on a small, two way trail system.

Grizz: Please make sure there is something for the cross country, enduro kind of rider. THERE ARE A BUNCH!!!

[/quote]

Perhaps I have not riden in the proposed area, actually I am pretty I have not. You mention: "Ride slowly on crowded trails - Just like a busy highway, when trails are crowded you must move slowly to ensure safety for all trail users". However, two way trails don't have medians or hwy lines it can be a mess, regardless. Highways have lanes and you know, not to come over to the other side on two lane HWY. Kids, don't drive and don't know the rules of the "road".

TRAILS SHOULD NOT BE CROWDED AND IF THEY ARE IT IS INSANE TWO HAVE TO CONSTANTLY BE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT IS AROUND THE NEXT CORNER!!!!


Does anyone know what is going on the rest of the forest?

[apkkfx400]

IMO-I don't know how anyone that has ridden a 4-wheeler/dirtbike/etc. and experienced both one-way and two-way trail systems can honestly say it is safer to have quads and dirtbikes going at the same rate of speeds in the opposite direction.  Where is the logic??  In a comparison, who thinks there are more head-on collisions on a 4 lane hwy or a two lane rd w/passing zones? 

[PHN]

Just a thought from a relative newbie here, but....

If we make too much of a problem here, and want to turn Ocala National Forest into "Our own little ATV race track"...then guess what will happen? This is federaly owned land, and they can wake up tomorrow and decide we don't deserve any access at all...If you don't think it could happen to you...you are kidding yourself....!

I think it's great that someone is stepping up here to try and bring something together here...but if we make it too hard for him or others to work with us...trust me the tree huggers will be more than happy to see us banned completely, and boy are they outspoken about that..we just all have to compromise and work towards some kind of common goal. It isn't going to be a race track or a mudfest either... if we waste so much energy fighting each other, when we could be working towards our common goal....

Just one man's opinion....

[fastrnrik]

I don't usually put my 2 cents in, but I have another perspective to consider. I live in Ocala, and have for many years been a US Forest Service contractor. My main contract is for fire suppression, which to the layperson means we plow fire lines with a bulldozer. We also do various road construction, infastructure, and other projects along those lines. I can honestly say, from experience, that the Rangers in Ocala are good, fair people. However, everytime we would cut a fire line, one of the biggest concerns was to, as soon as possible, rework the line and block it off, so it may grow back natural. It seems that any thing resembling a trail will soon be beat down into a road by ATV's, hunters, etc. which I can assure you, they do not want. Now I am the first to say that if Joe ATV Rider comes along a week later and sees a "trail" that's not blocked or posted, he's really not to blame for using it. But when the Forest Service employees put posts in to block the trail and people just go around them or pull them up for firewood and use the trail anyway, that creates a problem. It's not just ATV'ers that do this, it's hunters, and even some of those skeevy people who camp/live out there too (don't give me no flak, you've seen the "camps") . The problem is, like anywhere, it only takes a small majority of idiots from a group to ruin the entire situation for everybody. We as a group may enjoy going to ONF and riding with our families and friends, while doing our best to abide by their policies and be left alone. But there may a group who, knowing better, races up and down 588 or 573, or worse, dives off to go mud bogging in a nice pond. Guess who they remember, yeah, the idiots they have to chase around or clean up behind. The hunters, jeep clubs, sandrails, etc.  are all in the same boat as us, that a few dummies are ruining/have ruined their image with the powers that be. I haven't rode out there in a long time, but I would think a well marked trail system is a must. The idea of color coded signage sounded pretty good (and simple). If you see a "trail" that looks like a fire line or construction road, just don't use it,pretty simple. As far as trail width and etiquitte, all I can say is a little common sense (which a surprising number of people leave at home) goes a long way in preventing accidents. I can't speak for all the pits, but we used to ride the big pit on 588 (it has a fence around it now), and if I remember correctly it was closed for liability reasons (remember what I said about a few idiots?) I can see that I'm getting a little long winded here so I'll wrap it up. Remember though that the primary objective of the US Forest Service is to manage and preserve the Ocala National Forest, All other uses are secondary. Trying to oranize the ATV and dirt bike riders is an excellent idea, but remember to represent all groups (Ute's, Sport, Enduro, etc). Infighting is exactly what the opposition wants. This "fragmentation" tactic is used very effectively against the different hunter groups all the time. Make no mistake, the opposition (it's not just tree huggers) is well funded, well spoken, well connected in the government, and EXTREMELY dedicated. The ATV riders need to have equal dedication to preserving their riding areas before they are gone for good. I'm all in if you need my help.     

[Eworm]

I agree with the replies, for the most part. Personally, I don't like conflict and I think that by providing viable options and ideas, in a respectful manner the final outcome usually turns out much better. I don't ride track much because the air thing kind of gets me. However, I do like to ride trails at a faster than average rate of speed. I do it responsibly, with kids and the wife. I take off a little bit faster and then wait for them, pretty simple and safe. We have been doing like this for years without any incident or accident. We stay on the trails that are obviously open. However, I have seen the idiots out there running on the numbered roads and have also seen the tracks in the wet lands. I think those two things are the biggest problems in the forest, not the sport quads. I just want the public to have some say as far as what goes on over there. We all enjoy the forest and deserve to have a place to recreate and spend time with our families.

[Lost1403]

The 2 way thing isn't going to work epecially for ppl like dirtbike riders who if going around a corner and seeing someone and turning sharply to the side of the road could get injured..but if there isnt a part thats over 35mph its only catered to Utility ATV's which are the main law breakers due to the main problem the ONF has... Mudders... Never seen a sport quad trying to go through mudd over and over again to make a bigger hole..

  In the end I guess it doesn't really matter if its got the speed limit anyways since we are allowed to ride anywhere except numbered roads.. soo.. We can just go speed riding elsewhere.. ( out of Fish and Game and Forestry Service employees both)

[logger]

The 2 way thing isn't going to work epecially for ppl like dirtbike riders who if going around a corner and seeing someone and turning sharply to the side of the road could get injured..but if there isnt a part thats over 35mph its only catered to Utility ATV's which are the main law breakers due to the main problem the ONF has... Mudders... Never seen a sport quad trying to go through mudd over and over again to make a bigger hole..

  In the end I guess it doesn't really matter if its got the speed limit anyways since we are allowed to ride anywhere except numbered roads.. soo.. We can just go speed riding elsewhere.. ( out of Fish and Game and Forestry Service employees both)

First of all the trail system is here to stay, second complaining about it isn't constructive critasims. When the trail system goes in you just can't ride anywhere, you should stay on the trails. Third you use common sense, you know they are two way trails you stay to the right or left hand side of the trail, and pass with caution. Educuate your kids about ridiing and the rules for riding. My suggestion is next time you are at the ONF follow some of the brown signs and see what these trails are about. 90% of the trails you have been riding on since day one, the same trails, no difference in width. When you are on the trail system the signs are important, you have to look at the signs to know if you are on an ATV trail, multi use trail, or somewhere you shouldn't be.

[fastrnrik]

Eworm, it seems we are of similar opinions. And, it's true that being professional and respectful will get you farther torwards any objective. I attended a meeting a year or so ago regarding dog hunting, which is serious trouble in several areas in florida (no details, 'cause I don't want to get into it with Joe Dog Hunter). The outcome was a disaster, due in a large part to the hunters lack of organization going into the meeting. When the slick talking Enviro's went on the attack, the hunter group, which was comprised of several very good people, turned ignorant and started acting like dummies, even fighting with each other. Guess what, they lost the battle they were fighting that day. I personally ride sport quads, It's all I own. Remember though, that when the Forest Service sees someone repeatedly speeding down 588 on a Raptor, or blasting through the wetlands on a Grizzly, they don't think "sport quads are always racing or 4 x 4 Utility quads/mudders are always ruining our wetlands. They think that badly of ATV's and ATV riders in general . That's why I suggested that all the different riding styles get, and stay organized, and work through a single source. A good example of this is the Horse community, and their relationship with the Florida State Department of Greenways and Trails. I know this to be true, because I've personally built several very nice facilities on government property, paid for by the government, that cater strictly to horse people and their riding. Also, remember, while the Rangers in ONF are very good people, the Forest Service is a government agency with all the bureacracy that goes with any government agency. And, like any agency, the further up the ladder you go, the worse it gets. That's why you want the local Rangers on our side come "policy review" time. Like I said in my other post, The Forest Service's main objective is to preserve the forest itself, not our use of it. I think all would agree that it would suck for some higher up bureaucrats to  "review the problems" in ONF, and rather than continue to fight it (which costs them money), just say "OK, no more ATV's in ONF".  
Wow, I can be long winded.        

[eldiablo64]

I agree with EWORM,LOGGER,&FASTRNIK

[Chillinthemost]

 How can anyone say that 2 way trails wont work? They are 2 way now and always have been. I dont like the 1 way idea, if I get half way down a trail and one of my kids gets tired I like the option of turning around.
 It is silly to even think that they would consider a "race track" trail for sport quads. It is not a private facility like Durhamtown or some other similiar place, it is a National forest and they dont want us there at all. When I first started riding in the forest I was disapointed with all the rules and closed areas and then I took it for what it was and just enjoyed the time in the woods with friends and family. I have even bought a weekend getaway up there.
 With that said, There is NO ONE that likes to climb hills as much as me and if the pit 1 mile from my cabin wasn't fenced off I would ride in it and leave the rest of the forest alone. It has some really sweet walls in it (so Ive heard ). I also like to fast trail ride, thats why I race XC. I think the new system will work out OK and I dont like the idea of 1 way trails or speed limits.
 I also hope that they will provide a legal way to ride long distance. Say from big scrub to Rodman for example. I liked the adventure of having 400,000 acres to explore and no marked trails. All the marked trails might take out the thrill of getting lost.
 

[Eworm]

Eworm, it seems we are of similar opinions. And, it's true that being professional and respectful will get you farther torwards any objective. I attended a meeting a year or so ago regarding dog hunting, which is serious trouble in several areas in florida (no details, 'cause I don't want to get into it with Joe Dog Hunter). The outcome was a disaster, due in a large part to the hunters lack of organization going into the meeting. When the slick talking Enviro's went on the attack, the hunter group, which was comprised of several very good people, turned ignorant and started acting like dummies, even fighting with each other. Guess what, they lost the battle they were fighting that day. I personally ride sport quads, It's all I own. Remember though, that when the Forest Service sees someone repeatedly speeding down 588 on a Raptor, or blasting through the wetlands on a Grizzly, they don't think "sport quads are always racing or 4 x 4 Utility quads/mudders are always ruining our wetlands. They think that badly of ATV's and ATV riders in general . That's why I suggested that all the different riding styles get, and stay organized, and work through a single source. A good example of this is the Horse community, and their relationship with the Florida State Department of Greenways and Trails. I know this to be true, because I've personally built several very nice facilities on government property, paid for by the government, that cater strictly to horse people and their riding. Also, remember, while the Rangers in ONF are very good people, the Forest Service is a government agency with all the bureacracy that goes with any government agency. And, like any agency, the further up the ladder you go, the worse it gets. That's why you want the local Rangers on our side come "policy review" time. Like I said in my other post, The Forest Service's main objective is to preserve the forest itself, not our use of it. I think all would agree that it would suck for some higher up bureaucrats to  "review the problems" in ONF, and rather than continue to fight it (which costs them money), just say "OK, no more ATV's in ONF".  
Wow, I can be long winded.        

Very well said!!! AGREED 100% especially with long winded part, LOL:

[Eworm]

How can anyone say that 2 way trails wont work? They are 2 way now and always have been. I dont like the 1 way idea, if I get half way down a trail and one of my kids gets tired I like the option of turning around.

Chillin: Very simply. Normally, 2 way trails are not a problem when there is a "vast" amount of land to be riden on. This is the main issue here. In this case, we are getting approx 30% of what is available today. So , 30% with the same amount of riders is a recipe for disaster IMO. Also, if the trails are well marked including the distance on each one, you will know how long it is and by now I know you know how much your kid can go for. I know mine will only last about 1.5 hours then she starts complaining  bit to much. Come on Chillin, you know wanna run through them trails at 40 plus!! Hope all is well BTW!!!

[Chillinthemost]

How can anyone say that 2 way trails wont work? They are 2 way now and always have been. I dont like the 1 way idea, if I get half way down a trail and one of my kids gets tired I like the option of turning around.

Chillin: Very simply. Normally, 2 way trails are not a problem when there is a "vast" amount of land to be riden on. This is the main issue here. In this case, we are getting approx 30% of what is available today. So , 30% with the same amount of riders is a recipe for disaster IMO. Also, if the trails are well marked including the distance on each one, you will know how long it is and by now I know you know how much your kid can go for. I know mine will only last about 1.5 hours then she starts complaining  bit to much. Come on Chillin, you know wanna run through them trails at 40 plus!! Hope all is well BTW!!!

I did not think that we were getting a 70% reduction in the available trails. On my end of the forest most of the trails I use are going to be part of the system and I rarely see anyone else on the trails. Dont think I'm happy about the new system, I wish we could go back 10 years to the time the pits were all open and you could ride at night. We will just have to make the best of it. By the way, I'll be up there the weekend of the 15th and the 22nd. I would be happy to take you on a fast trail ride . I havent found anyone yet that I dont have to stop and wait up on.

[Bigscrb15]

How can anyone say that 2 way trails wont work? They are 2 way now and always have been. I dont like the 1 way idea, if I get half way down a trail and one of my kids gets tired I like the option of turning around.

Chillin: Very simply. Normally, 2 way trails are not a problem when there is a "vast" amount of land to be riden on. This is the main issue here. In this case, we are getting approx 30% of what is available today. So , 30% with the same amount of riders is a recipe for disaster IMO. Also, if the trails are well marked including the distance on each one, you will know how long it is and by now I know you know how much your kid can go for. I know mine will only last about 1.5 hours then she starts complaining  bit to much. Come on Chillin, you know wanna run through them trails at 40 plus!! Hope all is well BTW!!!

I did not think that we were getting a 70% reduction in the available trails. On my end of the forest most of the trails I use are going to be part of the system and I rarely see anyone else on the trails. Dont think I'm happy about the new system, I wish we could go back 10 years to the time the pits were all open and you could ride at night. We will just have to make the best of it. By the way, I'll be up there the weekend of the 15th and the 22nd. I would be happy to take you on a fast trail ride . I havent found anyone yet that I dont have to stop and wait up on.

If he comes up for a ride make sure you are a good host and give him lots of Horseradish, he loves the stuff!!! lol, just playin with ya eworm.

I think they really need 1 way trails, I don't like going through the forest and not knowing if someone is about to come around the same corner at 40mph. They also really need to seperate the riding areas and hunting areas.

[Chillinthemost]

I dont think separating the riding and hunting areas is a good idea. If they separate everything and have riding, hunting, dog hunting, horseback riding, bird watching, fishing, hiking, etc, etc etc. and then make the trails one way on top of that. I'd just stay home and ride around in my yard. General gun season is only 2 months long, I ride very little during that time and only ride in the middle of the day.   

[Bigscrb15]

I dont think separating the riding and hunting areas is a good idea. If they separate everything and have riding, hunting, dog hunting, horseback riding, bird watching, fishing, hiking, etc, etc etc. and then make the trails one way on top of that. I'd just stay home and ride around in my yard. General gun season is only 2 months long, I ride very little during that time and only ride in the middle of the day.  

That is true, now I think about it, I have only ridden the forest twice during hunting season.

[Eworm]

How can anyone say that 2 way trails wont work? They are 2 way now and always have been. I dont like the 1 way idea, if I get half way down a trail and one of my kids gets tired I like the option of turning around.

Chillin: Very simply. Normally, 2 way trails are not a problem when there is a "vast" amount of land to be riden on. This is the main issue here. In this case, we are getting approx 30% of what is available today. So , 30% with the same amount of riders is a recipe for disaster IMO. Also, if the trails are well marked including the distance on each one, you will know how long it is and by now I know you know how much your kid can go for. I know mine will only last about 1.5 hours then she starts complaining  bit to much. Come on Chillin, you know wanna run through them trails at 40 plus!! Hope all is well BTW!!!

I did not think that we were getting a 70% reduction in the available trails. On my end of the forest most of the trails I use are going to be part of the system and I rarely see anyone else on the trails. Dont think I'm happy about the new system, I wish we could go back 10 years to the time the pits were all open and you could ride at night. We will just have to make the best of it. By the way, I'll be up there the weekend of the 15th and the 22nd. I would be happy to take you on a fast trail ride . I havent found anyone yet that I dont have to stop and wait up on.

I'll run with you Chillin. I doubt you will need to wait and if you do, it will be a very short time. What day would be better? Sat the 15th or Sun the 16th? I can probably head out at about 6AM and be there before 10AM. You will have to PM me, where to go. I usually take 95 to 40 and then 40 into the forest to 588. Let me know....

[Eworm]

How can anyone say that 2 way trails wont work? They are 2 way now and always have been. I dont like the 1 way idea, if I get half way down a trail and one of my kids gets tired I like the option of turning around.

Chillin: Very simply. Normally, 2 way trails are not a problem when there is a "vast" amount of land to be riden on. This is the main issue here. In this case, we are getting approx 30% of what is available today. So , 30% with the same amount of riders is a recipe for disaster IMO. Also, if the trails are well marked including the distance on each one, you will know how long it is and by now I know you know how much your kid can go for. I know mine will only last about 1.5 hours then she starts complaining  bit to much. Come on Chillin, you know wanna run through them trails at 40 plus!! Hope all is well BTW!!!

I did not think that we were getting a 70% reduction in the available trails. On my end of the forest most of the trails I use are going to be part of the system and I rarely see anyone else on the trails. Dont think I'm happy about the new system, I wish we could go back 10 years to the time the pits were all open and you could ride at night. We will just have to make the best of it. By the way, I'll be up there the weekend of the 15th and the 22nd. I would be happy to take you on a fast trail ride . I havent found anyone yet that I dont have to stop and wait up on.

If he comes up for a ride make sure you are a good host and give him lots of Horseradish, he loves the stuff!!! lol, just playin with ya eworm.

I think they really need 1 way trails, I don't like going through the forest and not knowing if someone is about to come around the same corner at 40mph. They also really need to seperate the riding areas and hunting areas.

That was NOT horseradish!!! How could they sell something that brings tears to your eyes???