ATV Florida Forum

This really blows! What a waste of time and resources. :'( I would personnally like to thank President Bush for dragging us into this quagmire.   >:(

So glad we were able to find those WMD's. What a joke! God protect our troops over seas and bring them home asap.   

I think we should bring the troops home today!  If we are worried about who takes Saddams place heres what we do:  SHOCK & AWE all over again.  We kick butt easy enough for a week, then bring em back.  We continue this until their is a regime we can live with.  No more occupation forces.

This is also great training for our troops. (Our casualties were minimal the first week, both times)

if we pull out and dont fight it there, it WILL be fought HERE in a matter of time. ithink we should pull them out and nuke the crap out of them but that isnt gonna happen. we need to take care of these scum bags.

im w/ ^ we should kill all the stupid towelhead muslims wether in the usa or overseas part of the basis of muslim religion is kill those who dont accept their beliefs so that puts ALL muslims as threats wether they do the act or just support them they are crazy basturds n should be done away with >:(

ttt

Well, this whole can of worms has already been opened. Fox is right though up to the nukeing part. It seems like a good idea at first but when you actually put it into reality, its a very bad idea. As for the 3,000 people that died all I have to say is this. I respect our troops and completly support them. But if we leave then what took 3,000 lives and years to fix will all be for nothing in a week. I dont know if people realize how bad some people are. They are extremist that are driven by one thing. Religion. They will not stop untill their religion is all there is or they are eleminated. How many major terrorist attacks have happened since we went into Iraq. 0. Thats because we are fighting them over there instead over here. If we let them take over that country, which they will, then 3,000 lives could be in one attack. Thats why we need to make sure those 3,000 men and women that died over there died for a reason.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Very well said but it's easier for some people to blame Bush for everything. C'mon,do you really think that just because we have not found any weapons of mass destruction that they were never there? Remember during and leading up to the initial invasion they had SEVERAL oppurtunities to move them to neighboring countries.I'm with you,had we not gone to war there would most certainly have been another attack against us. We as a country fear a nuclear attack and as a result we include it as a contributing factor in the excuse for going to war but on the other hand we have no problem suggesting we nuke someone else??? That's not the answer.We're on the right tract by trying to help them institute some sort of governmental institution in hopes of enabling them to enforce law and order for themselves. While I'm truly heartbroken for the families of our soldiers lost in action I can honestly say I feel safer now then if we were not there keeping them from openly organizing and promoting another attack. Yes I would love to say our job is finished and get all the troops out of there but that would be the beginning to our end.Remember were not savages like the extremists over there that have been fighting holy wars for years and years.Could you imagine seeing the death and destruction that has happened there for hundreds of years happening in your neighborhood?

It's been said before that " War is hell." This war is world wide, and is going to last a long time. This war is like the Cold war. Those with the most desire to win will win. We can't afford to run away and put our head in the sand. We have to support our troops both here and away. They sacrifice family,career and life,and what have we given?( Some have given their children). I'm guilty of not doing enough, just like some of you. So, lets have some practical ideas to help our troops and their families. Forget Bush, or Rep, or Dem. It is what it is. If we don't all get involved we will all lose.

Very well said from both here. I thank our veterans for fighting for our country and keeping us safe. On another hand, people must remember that we have a military to protect our country and every one in there to this date, VOLUNTEERED. They were not DRAFTED. They joined the military because, they wanted to protect our country, The benefits and retirement, paid health benefits and decent pay. My brother served 16 years in the military and went to desert storm but it was his and only his decision to join the forces. People who JOIN knows going in that it is a dangerous job and must weigh their own options before signing up for it. What about other people that protect us and our country. Has anyone forgot about all the cops that protect our streets day and night. They to go to work every day knowing that they may not come home to their families. Should we not have a military and cops to protect us. What would this country be without them. If these people did not VOLUNTEER then there would be no need to have a military or cops on the streets. Its a job and every job has its dangers. Didn't I hear on the news a few weeks back that some democrat representatve wanted to bring back the draft. YEP. Now those people that are drafted will not get a choice. In one ear you hear that we should pull out and in another we hear that maybe we should reinstate the draft. Why have the draft if we are not gonna protect our country.

Lets see, did it work the first week? No. If we would have won the  war in the first two weeks then the war would have been over weeks ago. I wish it was that easy but its not. Just keep invading and then running away? That would just be millions of dollars wasted in transporting troops. Plus giving them time to take over the country again would just be shooting ourselves in the foot.

The war on terror is like the war on drugs and the war on poverty. It will continue throught our lifetime and probably our childrens as well.

I am thankfull that there are so many brave men and women that vollenteer for our armed services so that we can enjoy our freedom.

my .02

History is repeating itself. If you look at the wars the U.S. engaged in over the last 200 years you will see the pattern. Except for Vietnam and that tragic fight in Somolia, we stopped the aggression of other non-democratic countries with a azz-whipping. Now look at those same countries today. They are allies of the U.S. and Democracy Rules. Plain and simple. We went in to do a job, lets finish the job and come home. The loss of the 3000 is a tragedy and can never be forgotten or diminished by running away. This is a whole different type of war that will last forever. They are coming and we must not be defeated anywhere. My .02 worth.         

I am so sick of all the Bush haters. Your arguments are unfounded & full of holes. The day we stepped on to the beach in Normandy in a WORLD WAR, we lost over 3000 MEN in the first hour. I guess we should have turned tail & went home right then ???!!!! Give me a break, check the stats on all wars on lives lost before posting a dead end thread like this one. We have been fighting every day for years now, 3000 isnt much compared to the past. God bless our troops & George Bush OUR PRESIDENT like it or not.

Don't think you can compare the so called 'war' in iraq with the invasion of Normandy! Come on you need to give us a break! For one, there is not even an Iraqi army any more to fight. We have gotten together some iraqi misfits and tried to train them to fight the insurgents. That obviously is not working. Everyday IED's explode and kill and mame hundreds. I believe there were around 66,000 deaths in the Vietnam war. You say 3,000 is not much? Well, the 3,000th death of one of ours was a young guy. He had been in Iraq only for 2 months. That is sad he had to lose his life in that crizap hole of a place for nothing.  Tell each of the parents or widows of those 3,000 that that number is not much. I think one was too much life to lose.

If Mr. Bush can't outfit our troops with enough fire power and armor so they do not get killed then what can he do?     

Yeah it's Bush's fault that Sadam killed 10's or even 100's of thousands and needed to be ousted. And there's no way we should have been willing to sacrifice any of our courageous soldiers for something like , oh I don't know, prevention of manufacturing of or obtaining WMD, or funding and training terrorists. Hey didn't we do someting similar in the 40's? And how many died then? I'm sure we lost a lot more on D-Day but no one
 b!tched then. We had the same liberties back then , but I guess with more time as a free country under our belts we get complasent and start crying about the sacrifices that need to be made to ensure our way of life, and to bring it to others in the world. Hey we could have left sadam in to kill another 100,000 by way of gas fi the mood struck him, But then the same people b!tching now would say Bush was a monster for NOT stepping in. Just remember that if it wasn't for our courageous soldiers and our courageous leaders  that we wouldn't have the freedom and luxury of sitting back whining like so many do. Just a quick question for the liberals out there... how many people did sadam have to torture and  brutally murder while starving others to keep the billions of illegal oil money to build his palaces to make it worth going in?

Don't forget to mention that China is currently and has been for years killing thousands of its own people each year. They even run over there own youths with there tanks. Why doesn't Bush go over there and take out thier leadership? Because then all the government croonies would stop making millions on all the Chinese contracts etc. 

We did not have to wait for Bush to step in do something to save Iraqi lives. There are already 100's of them getting killed each day there now. Saddam does not have to do it. Also I remember when Bush did nothing to save the lives of those folks that were hit by hirricane Katrina. I waited for him to step in and help those less fortunate but he never did. So don't say Bush is our savior. Becuase he is not.

^^^ just ask the liberals, they have all the suggestions, but no REAL ANSWERS, just bitching.

 This whole s---t storm in Iraq could have been avoided had we bombed the crap out of Iran( the country that actually has nukes and supports terrorist groups)and made that place a parking lot. After that ,all the terrorist nations would listen to what we are cookin!!! Or face ultimate extermination. And that makes sense whether you are a dem or a rep!! So can we end this crappy thread now!!!!

I dont understand why people cannot comprehend the fact that you cannot nuke other countries just because they are a problem. Everyone would be dead if that was the case. First of all if that was an attempt at a shutdown post then that was bad. Lets just think about what would happen if we decided to drop a bomb on Iran. First of all they would fire thier nukes at us because they might live in a desert but they have the techonlogy to fire back and know there about to get microwaved. Plus nukes dont stop at the border. If you want to turn the entire country into a "parking lot" then you would need a pretty big bomb. Then the neucler fall out and radiation would devisitate the region and all the oil it brings. And because we import like 75% of all our oil from that region it would be pretty bad. Not to mention how we would look in the international spotlight. So as you can see nuking a country would be a very bad idea and I wish people would stop suggesting it.

Sorry Wilburz, but you seem to be outnumbered. You are a great guy and I will ride with you any time but we dont agree on this issue.

I said "bomb" not "nuke" there is a huge difference. We dont need to nuke anybody to break their will and get them to lay down their weapons. The invasion of Iraq started as a "bombing campaign" , Desert storm started as a" bombing campaign" and most all other military conflicts start pretty much the same way. You have to soften up your enemy and you do that with tactical bombing!!! Now that we cleared that up , can we end this and move on to more important things like college football!!!!!! ;D

So bash Bush for stepping in in Iraq, then contradict yourself by bashing him for not stepping in in China ? China isn't out to destroy us or Isreal which would definitely lead to a widespread nuclear war. We can't save the world all at once, and even if we tried people like you would complain if a soldier died, then b!tch because we didn't do it sooner. It still amazes me that Bush is to blame for a natural disaster and for the loss of property and life, even when the residents were warned and told to leave. Maybe Bush should have forced them out via military at gunpoint for their own good, but wait then you would bash him for doing that. It appears in the opinions of some some of our presidents (Clinton) could do no wrong (Lewinski, whitewater, lie under oath, etc,etc,etc) and Bush can do no right in your eyes. Protect us from terrorists, liberate 2 countries from brutal murderous dictators, and still he's to blame for everything ? Just amazing.

Oh, boy....... this is a great discussion on how to further divide and weaken America ,by looking at this situation through partisan eyes. This accomplishes nothing .

12,000 Iraqis have died, too! But, who gives a rat's ass about them because our humanitarian effort was only intended to "liberate" the survivors, right?  Those 15,000 are simply collateral damage!

Um yeah Sadam had them all living in the lap of luxury  ::) They were starving to death and being tortured and murdered under Sadam. Now they have a chance to make their country a thriving one. We don't possess a magic wand to make everything all right, it takes time to reconstruct infrastructure and to better things that Sadam neglected to make sure he had 80 palaces and private zoos.  We've taken the first necessary steps and are working on the rest. First complain if we help them , them say we're not doing it fast enough. Is that some sort of genetic imperfection in Dems ?

And yes unfortunately this has been made a partisan thing. by the Dems for bashing Bush to further their agendas. Why is it ok for dems to attack everything under teh Bush admin. bt it Reps fire back they're creating a partisan divide ? hyposcisy is the Dem way of life.

Ok, you just proved a very valid point . You and many others cant see past your own partisan noses. This kind of partisan bickering is what both parties strive for. Keep you busy arguing over things that we only know a fraction of the truth about so they dont have to do the real work and help Americans!!!!!!!!  Its like a misdirection play in football and we are the defense that they are hoping bites and falls for it.
We should all realize that whether we like it or not this action in Iraq was a mistake. A mistake because we didnt go for the real problem. Yes, saddam was a tyrant and he did alot of bad things but he wasnt half the threat that Iran is ! And that my conservative and liberal friends is the inconvienent truth ;)
 can we talk about something a bit more interesting now?

I'm not bound by party lines, I think for myself. I don't care what party it is, going into Iraq was the right thing to do, and although a terrible price 3,000 soldiers have died doing a good, necessary thing. It just so happend I tend to agree with more things coming from the Rep side than the Dem but I vote based on issues not party. I made comments based upon facts and my opinions based upon what I've observed and know to be true, not due to one party or the other spoon feeding me what I should spit back.

If you want to talk about something more intresting then why do you keep reading this. I also love your argument. You provide no facts, you try to compare this war with football and then finally since your arguments are shallow and baseless, you try an change the subject by either not talking about it or trying to change the subject to another country that posses the capability to deystroy us, will not. One we keep that coutry by the oil industry, and two they know we will hit them right back. Other then that they are very little threat, just allot of talking and threats. Plus we do know the truth in Iraq. If your like most people however you listen to whatever the media tells you and have you ever herd the media say anything good about the war? NO you havent. The bottom line is we invaded Iraq because they were ruled by a facist dictator bent on world rule that had possesed the technology or possibly the weapons themselves. Now im not a very good math student but dictator+big bomb= problem. That and he had a slight problem with torturing his citizens. So the "inconveient truth" is that we are in there and we arent going anywhere untill the job is done. There are many reasons why we have to stay in there. Im not going to bother with listing them because they have already been listed.

what you said before was clearly rep talking points , whether you know it or not . so,  essentially thats a contradiction. But, the beauty of America is different ideas coming together to help ALL not some .I myself like to take the middle cause both parties are crooks and liars. One is not better than the other. They prove that constantly. So lets all move on and stop this partisan drivel. :P

HMMM..... well I believe i said we know very little about the totality of the Iraq situation. And anyone who thinks Iraq is a bigger threat to us than Iran is uninformed and clearly not aware of their military capabilities as well as their sponsorship of terrorist organizations such as Hammas,Al Queda and Hezbollah that operate through out the middle east and other muslim extremist groups operating in  south asia . Which before the war they did not operate in Iraq. Mostly because Saddam was very secular(he is not a die hard muslim) and felt that any terror groups operating in his country was a direct threat to him and his regime                                                                                                    I think this subject is above alot of our heads because we only know what the gov. wants us to know. But, you can find out how the lead up to war with Iraq came about by reading AGAINST ALL ENEMIES by former terrorism czar Richard Clarke. He was appointed by Reagan after we where attacked in Beruit , we later pulled out and it was later taken over by muslim exteremists. The book might give all some insight into how the blaim for our current situation in the middle east goes from the Bush admin all the way back to the Carter admin. And it also mentions that the intelligence that suggested that Iraq had WMDs was flaud because the persons that where feeding the  Intelligence Org in the Defense Dept  ( was created by Don Rumsfeld and all their intelligence oddly enough contridicted every thing the CIA had, which was good info cause they had a mole in Saddams inner circle) had alterior motives for getting into power ( does the name Chalabi ring a bell). Hes now in jail in Iraq . I dont think its any stretch to say Ramzi Josef (the mastermind behind the Twin Towers bombing in 1993) was a bigger threat to our national security than Saddam.Considering he was still on the lam at that time. But, Im sure your aware of this? ;)

If we let those countries bomb and distroy Israel peace will happen over there. Israel is the root to the problem. Are involvement in backing Israel with weapons, money and fighting there wars is the root to Muslims hating us. But you'll never hear that because all our newpapers and TV stations are owned by Jews.  ;)

didnt see that comin...... ???

I am so sick and tired of this feeble-minded belief that one man took this country to war; that one man tricked Congress into believing there were WMDs.  This country went to war willingly but once the reality of war hit home, everybody started backstroking and/or doing the political spin.  If you are truly upset about the 3,000 warriors who died in the last four or five years, knowingly going into harms way, why aren't you screaming about the 40,000+ that die EVERY YEAR on the nation's highways, most of whom had no idea what was coming?  Get your head out of your ass and see it for what it is.  War is a necessary evil.  The blood of war is the price we pay for our freedom from oppression.  Besides, there's oil in them thar sand dunes!!!   ;)


http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_02_18.html (http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_02_18.html)

yeah cause there is freedom in every drop of oil!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

No problem Chillin. I think it is good to discuss issues with one another. I knew you did not agree with this since I posted the same thing last year when we hit 2,000 dead.

I just don't see the need for American forces to be in Iraq. That is all. And if they are there i would like to see an overwhelming force that is well equipted and taking control. Maybe that is not possible. We will see.     

Screw it, lets invade Canada.

"A conservative believes every day is the 4th of July. A Liberal thinks it's always April 15th." ~ Ronald Reagan.

Liberals think its Texas Motorspeedway race weekend?
I know that Reagan was losing his mind but that doesnt make sense! ;D ;D ;D

That's got to be about the stupidest thing I've ever read in this forum. Isreal would only be the first step. Extremist Muslims want a Muslim world. If Isreal was gone that would only remove some of the restraint of the extremist in that region and they would move on to the next target. What do you think 9/11 was about ?

I couldnt have said it better myself. Anothrer reason that is stuipid is that Isreal has been dominating over there for hundreds of years. Isreal is not going to be overtaken. If anything they will be the ones bombing everyone. Peace is a joke overthere. The only way for true peace is for one country to rule the entire region. Also, did not say that Iraq is more of a threat then Iran. Before the war they were though. Iran is a large and powerful contry with the military technology that is close to ours. But they would never invade our country or even bomb it for that matter. One, they make way too much money off of us to bomb us. The money that they make off of us is what keeps there ecnomy running. Also, by invading us they know they donot have the money or the troops to actually invade us. And if they bombed us then they know that we would kindly return the favor. So iran is still not a major therat. Even if some people are corrupt in their country, they are not stuipid.

Why do you think they hate Isreal so much ? Because they're NOT Muslims. If they were Muslims then it would be a land dispute. They hate Isreal over theology and religion. They don't want Isreal out of Gaza, or what they want as Palestine, they want Isreal wiped off the map. Iran, Iraq, Syria, just about everyone there has said it at one time or another. They won't even recognize Isreal's right to be. Removing Isreal wouldn't solve a problem at all, it would just allow the extremist Muslims to take their time before attacking another non-Muslim country. That's not partisan- it's fact.

Some of the stupidest thing I've ever heard was some of the b.s. out of you guys. Just keep on believing what you here on t.v. and what Rush tells ya and all the other radio idiots.
 The Muslims country's want there holy land back that was stolen from them after world war 2. Thats a fact and were standing in the way. Were also fighting Israels war for them in Iraq with no help from them. Its not about oil, its all about protecting Israel. Do you really think we were in danger from the technology of Iraq, then your stupid. If they ever got any kind of missile it would be a short range missile that would make it to about Israel and thats what they want. Remember we sold Iraq most of  there weapons and they were one of our allies. Its was OK then that Saddam murder his own people but now its so bad. Think about it, if I got together a couple of thousand people and plan on taking over the white house what would you think would happen to us. :-[ Yeah it wouldn't be pretty. Look at the A-hole in Cuba Castro, He's murder many more people then Saddam ever did and he's only 100 miles away. But reality is Israel runs this country were there slaves. :o
  My thought on this is leave the area and keep our nose out of other country's business and let the freaks over there fight it out. Let Israel handle  You don't get in a holy war with those people. Let them self destruct themselves.

You can't just stay out. Isolationism died as a viable option with the invention of ballistic bombers, intercontinental ballistic missiles and submarines. Basically we can't just ignore everything but our own shores or we'd be screwed. Anyone with any exposure to political science knows that.
and if we are going to tell Isreal, a nuclear power, to get out and give their land to whom ever then are we going to all go back to Europe or where we came from and give the Native Americans their land back ? If so then should the Spanish erase all their enfluence from all the lands they captured and ruled with their elite armada of the past ? what you propose might sound good to some extreme liberal idealists, but in reality it doesn't work.

The country of Israel was established after WW2.So, they have only been a country for 60 years. It was taken in the Arab- Israel war in 1949.
But the land was for a very long time ruled by the Brits. Infact most of the middle east at one time had many British colonies in it. The Arabs of many of the surrounding countries where incensed at the idea that there land was being given to the Jews, thus the bad blood and hatred. So, if you would like to blame someone ,the British didn't do anybody any favors.
Also , Iran's army isn't even close to the technology we have. The US has the most advanced fighting force in the world. The problem is the complete comprehension of who has what and what they would do with it . Iraq had no military. How do we know that? 1.Saddam couldn't get anything in or out without his neighboring countries or us knowing about it. 2.his army was nearly destroyed in Desert storm. 3. His army had been fighting with Iran for many years and was under staffed and burnt out or just plain dead!!

I think if every one really took the time to read the history of the region and analyzed accounts by retired military involved in both the 1991 conflict and our current situation you would have a better understanding of this. Cause selling oil to the US means nothing to these people. Knowledge is power, some of us need to exercise there brains.

Ye Isreal as a country is very young, but it's there none the less. You can't blame anyone. the Muslims think they have some divine right to all the land in a certain region, but that's just their belief and it doesn't govern international law. We can't just say God says we can have all middle East land and take it like they want to do. They need to deal with it.  That just (once again) shows my point- the Muslims want what they want because they want it and they're willing to continually attack anyone or thing in the way of what they want. So if (never happen) Isreal was gone, they'd just then focus on a Muslim world as they want instead of just an Isreal free Middle East. They want to rid the world of all non Muslims yet some foolishly sympathize with thier stance instead of seeing it for what it is, racism, cultural elitism, and a desire to murder all non muslims. How is it they are seen as the victims ?

Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts.

It's not a matter of oil or Israel.Bottom line is it's about protecting our country.How are we protecting our country fighting over there you say?Does anyone remember a little thing called 911???? This war is a direct result or action of September 11th. When the planes crashed into the towers it drove home the reality of how vulnerable we really were.Notice I said "were"? While we're not completely safe from another attack we are however safer than we were. They chose to bring the fight into our back yard.We didn't ask for it.We had no choice but to stand up for ourselves.If that means we went to war under false pretenses "WOMD" then so be it. I really don't give a $hit if Bush new there were no WOMD or not! He did what had to be done.The terrorists were supported financially by both Iraq and Iran. It kills me when the main argument of certain anti Bush people is that we found no weopans.SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think back to how you felt watching the news on September 11th. I was at work standing beside a group of coworkers watching the first building burning and then seeing the second plane hit.I was sick to my stomach and it actually brought tears to my eyes. Bush was not the bad guy at that moment so why is he now.He is a true american with balls enough to stand up for his country despite what some may view as unpopular.In my book he is and will always be a true american hero. You people that bash the "neccessary war" and bush kill me. You continue to say he is responsible for the lost lives of soldiers and that he's responsible for the suffering of the families of them. Personally I think that YOU are dishonoring the memories of the lost soldiers and disrespecting their families by condeming what they gave their lives for and what they believed in. "Protecting the USA". To bash the president during a war is wrong. I will try to refrain from responding to this post anymore because I really get worked up by some of the people with blinders on that feel the need to make an unfortunate but neccessary situation worse by criticizing the one person that makes the decision to try to save america as a whole.In closing let me say one more time.Remember 911 and thank god you have a pesident like Mr. Bush.

Who tell you this stuff CNN. Thats a small portion Muslims that think that way. If thats the case were in trouble then, isn't there like 5 or6 million Muslims in U.S. Damn looks like we already lost then. I guess its time to move to Australia. ;)

Go sell that crazy talk to someone else!!!   :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo :oo

I dont think there is one single American that didnt feel like we needed to put a beat down on some body for 9/11. We started out good with going to afganistan, but we took our eyes off the ball going to Iraq. We should have gone to Iran and hind sight being 20/20 that is indisputible! Remember its not a dumb mistake if you learn from it!! We should all throw away our voter registration cards  and start over cause its not about reps or dems its about Americans!!!!!!!! Anyone who cant agree with that should leave the country!!!!

Go sell that crazy talk to someone else? Boy you really got me on that one trx.What a comeback. EINSTEIN!

its EINSTEIN! LOL
;)

Hey give me a break I've been up since 5:00 am. I have to admit that was funny. Ironic but funny.

:ThumbsUp.gif  Good night guys!!!

Yes it is a small portion that are the extremist/terrorists. Islam itself is not a violent religion. That said how many does it take to be effective as a terrorist group, not many. They fight for what they believe which is Islam. They however do believe that it is sopposed to be (by God) the ONLY regligion and that all others are "infidels". That is the same reason that many years ago sailors would rather die at sea than be stranded i Muslim land. The Muslims believed that white sailors that drifted up on their shores were "gifts from God" and immediately enslaved as property of Muslims. Is that OK just becasue it's what they believe ? NO. it also isn't ok to deny Isreal the right to exist just because the Muslims don't believe they should be there. and NO they don't want to "invade" our country, they would like to wipe it off the map! Forget CNN, have you seen the speaches from the head of Iran ? Did you know Sadam said he was months from having a nuke and would immediately blow Isreal off the map? do you really think the heads of our country just felt like going to war? it was to keep us safe and Isreal safe, which also avoided an all out nuclear war. If Isreal is attacked they can nuke the whole region. then what? All the others with nukes start looking around to see who's next. So next time you post, especially calling others "uninformed" how about researching the facts. Non-partisan, not just rhetoric, facts. you obviously have good intentions, but have little information about the real world, how the balance of terror works, or the ins and outs of political science.
I have continually posted facts and basic principals of political science. others have just made inflammatory posts and suggested things based upon the beliefs of their party. How about some of you Bush bashers post some intelligent positions instead of "it's Bush's fault" ? tell me how you're right,. not just because you wnat to be right and you hate Bush, but based upon sound deductions, political science, and facts. then I'll dignify any further posts with a response. I know there are many intelligent people here with views that often conflict with mine, that's great. I encourage all to become informed and develop their own opinions. I'm not saying mine is the only way, but to the few I've gone back and forth with in this thread, you are jsut posting out of emotion, not facts and sound political science backgrounds. ignorance is bliss, and alot of you are VERY HAPPY people

I love to debate, but when it's with people that can't even tell you why they believe the way they think, or put any facts with their argument, it's just me talking to a wall.

WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight! ;)

I'm long out of school and you're right I'm not your intellectual equal, I'm your intellectual superior.

smbch quotes - "I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted"

"This whole s---t storm in Iraq could have been avoided had we bombed the crap out of Iran( the country that actually has nukes and supports terrorist groups)and made that place a parking lot. After that ,all the terrorist nations would listen to what we are cookin!!! Or face ultimate extermination. And that makes sense whether you are a dem or a rep!! "

while it would have probably avoided an Iraq war, that's ignorant. Like you said they have nukes, that's the deterant right there. We  bomb them, their crazy leader unleashes nukes then the entire world is at risk. That's not a viable solution. We can't just bomb them as they are a more apt military force that may have nukes. Do you think they would let us bomb them then walk in and take over without employing all means of self preservation including nukes ?

"this is a great discussion on how to further divide and weaken America ,by looking at this situation through partisan eyes. This accomplishes nothing . "

While I agree bi-partisanism accomplishes nothing, it is indeed a partisan issue for many (excluding myself). However, this discussion does nothing to "further divide and weaken America" it draws into light the miscalculations of the Bush administration, and the unwillingness of teh Dem party to do anything at all.

"We should all realize that whether we like it or not this action in Iraq was a mistake. A mistake because we didnt go for the real problem. Yes, saddam was a tyrant and he did alot of bad things but he wasnt half the threat that Iran is ! And that my conservative and liberal friends is the inconvienent truth"

I don't look down a partisan nose at all and your accusation only proves my point of you as well as others speaking out of emotion instead of fact.
I agree Iran is indeed a problem, but how many can we handle at once? If we went into Iran tomorrow Bush would be (again) called a war monger and people would say Iran was no threat. Sadam was a tyrant and needed to be removed for his murderous ways. In addition, like you suggested before by taking out Iran to quell Iraq, it was supposed to work in revers and quell Iran by attacking Iraq. The key there is that Iraq was unable to deploy nuclear weapons in defense. And who's to say Iran didn't get their nuclear capabilities from  Iraq just as in the first gulf war he sent many of his Mig jets to Iran to keep them from US attacks ?


"what you said before was clearly rep talking points , whether you know it or not . so,  essentially thats a contradiction. But, the beauty of America is different ideas coming together to help ALL not some .I myself like to take the middle cause both parties are crooks and liars. One is not better than the other. They prove that constantly."

Again you make unsubstantiated claims of me being swayed by party affiliation only proving your uninformed responses. I am not partisan although I may or may not agree with more attributes of one party or another.
I agree both are  crooks and unfortunately we are stuck with it for now. The important thing is doing what's right to protect the US. That included taking out Sadam. Both to prevent him from aiding terrorists and to (in theory) disuade otehrs from similar actions.

"And anyone who thinks Iraq is a bigger threat to us than Iran is uninformed and clearly not aware of their military capabilities as well as their sponsorship of terrorist organizations such as Hammas,Al Queda and Hezbollah that operate through out the middle east and other muslim extremist groups operating in  south asia . Which before the war they did not operate in Iraq. Mostly because Saddam was very secular(he is not a die hard muslim) and felt that any terror groups operating in his country was a direct threat to him and his regime   "

again you post as if you and you alone know all and can tell where the threat is. I am well aware of Iran's sponsorship of terrorists, as well as Sadam's secular nature. But do you really think killing ther extremists in Iraq is bad even if tehy come from other places to get killed there?  Much of the other stuff you present as facts is simply conspiracy theory. try dealing in facts, not what you think might be the cause.

"      yeah cause there is freedom in every drop of oil!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Just another inflammatory remark that appears to suggest that we went in for reasons of oil/monetary gain. Again speculation and consipracy theory. Do you really think Bush or any of the oil rich politicians need to start a war to make money? that's just ridiculous.

"Iran's army isn't even close to the technology we have. The US has the most advanced fighting force in the world. The problem is the complete comprehension of who has what and what they would do with it . Iraq had no military. How do we know that? 1.Saddam couldn't get anything in or out without his neighboring countries or us knowing about it. 2.his army was nearly destroyed in Desert storm. 3. His army had been fighting with Iran for many years and was under staffed and burnt out or just plain dead!!

I think if every one really took the time to read the history of the region and analyzed accounts by retired military involved in both the 1991 conflict and our current situation you would have a better understanding of this"

Iran is no where near our capabilities, but even one nuke will start a nuclear war.
Iraw had no military is right, that's why we took them out instead of Iran which could have ended us up in a nuclear war.
You say to listen to those that were involved in the actions in the region? I get some of my info from some ex-UN weapons inspectors. And instead of just listening to retired military which may have a political agenda of their own, how about looking at facts with a clear head ?

"Radical muslims believe that ISLAM (the arab territories) is sacred land . And thats what they are fighting for . They dont want to invade our country, hell they dont even have the ability to get here to do it.They want there land back(sounds like the american indian, huh?) I dont want to insult anyones intelligence but from what I read so far on this thread , there are some very uninformed people that are making very uninformed posts. "

a small portion of Muslims are teh terrorist/extremists true, but almost all refuse to accept the right of Isreal to even exist! do they want to invade us ? No they want us all dead and many of the Muslim leaders have SAID IT themselves!
and again you speak out of emotion and pesonally attack others instead of sticking to facts.

" dont think there is one single American that didnt feel like we needed to put a beat down on some body for 9/11. We started out good with going to afganistan, but we took our eyes off the ball going to Iraq. We should have gone to Iran and hind sight being 20/20 that is indisputible! "

I'm amazed that you are so intelligent that you can easily solve all problems and you and only you seem to know exactly what the US should do. YOu can't prove or provide much arguement for Iran being more dangerous than Iraq. Even if you could how stupid it would have been to attack the Nuclear power instead of the one that has already lost much of its military force.

"WOW ............................that was the most ignorant rant of non facts i have ever read.You applied basic political science ideals? And I never blaimed Bush for any of the military moves , he knows better than to get involved where he knows nothing.I challenge you to dispute anything Ive posted , most has come from the Iraq report.   ;DI hope your still in school cause you need a tutor.  no offense but you are very misinformed . And ill leave it at that , cause i can see im not talking to my intellectual equal. goodnight"

Again more personal attacks instead of intelligent discussion. You balk at the application of political science to a political situation ? Who has the problem there? I speak of facts and known applications of political science, you simply attack others out of emotion. I've long ago graduated, but I still keep informed. Where is your degree? where do you get your information? I'm just curious since you see to know all, but fail to support it with fact or application of proven mothodology.
You issued a challenge to dispute what you posted. I have done it not through emotion as you post, but through knowledge and backed up by facts. Now, if you are so inclined, respond with something intelligent yourself instead of another personal attack.




                                                                                 

If anyone is still in school its me. And for 14 I think I know what im talking about. I dont read all the reports and I dont know all the ins and outs of the Islamic religion, but you two above arent even debating. Your just attacking each others facts. I dont see anybody comming back with actual facts. It sounds more like 5th grade name calling! Im not exaticly the most "informed" person but we all know that everything is biased. No matter what you read or listen to its all biased. Rush Limbaugh is biased. The Iraq report probably has pages that werent shown to the public. Its biased. We all know that the media is biased. Even fox. Do you see what im getting at? An intellengent debate uses well put together informed arguments with facts to back them up. TRX#9 means not you... Cable guy posts this great post about america and bush and you dissmiss it like its nothing. So if were going to continue to talk about this then lets stick to the facts and attack the other persons arguments. Not there facts and call them names. If you guys cant do that then lets just let this post die.

unfortunately i political/war issues the only time facts are available as to what someone will do is after the fact. For instance the use of nukes if Iran was attacked. So it is based upon sound theory produced by studying years and years of what has already taken place in previous similar situation. For instance anyone with ANY political science info knows what the balance of terror is, or why osolationism no longer works. So in effect I  have posted things based upon fact. Not like the "I think __________ is the real mastermind behind 9/11" comments of others. When heads of state make decisions they base it upon the information gathered from previous situations provided by those that study it eg. political scientists. And no it's not a name calling match, I have backed up my posts with the same theory that is used by politicians to form their own decisions and actions. I'm not calling anyone names, hope I didn't before, but I leave my facts and theory in tact. If someone can offer conflicting facts or theory based other than than their own emotions and conspiracy theories, please do so.

To tell you the truth I was talking to other people in this thread more then you in particular.

I think yall should read this. I actually think we needed to go into Iraq and do what we did but we also need to be prepping up for Iran. Those yahoos may cause us some real trouble.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Nzc1YTNjZDlmZjU3MzBjMTNhMjFhNDNmYjNmNjU0NTI=

Oh, sorry bout that  ;)

Jez ??? , I didnt know it was that serious! Now as I stated I am only 14 and I am easily influenced by what I read. But this sounds very serious. I know the UN is putting ecnomic sanctions on Iran but they need to do something if this stuff is going to happen. I am very skeptical so dont think im paniking or anything but wow.... :-\

hmm, that degree of yours didn't help, Iran only started developing Nuclear weapons about a year and a half ago. I probably was getting my degree  when you where still listening to the backstreet boys, if I where you i wouldn't be so presumptuous.To think you are the authority on this subject is ridiculous. We know only what retired CIA, military, and civilian people involved in the lead up decide to share. If your saying your application of political science changes fact, well.....thats a new one.

quote from smbch- "Iraq only started developing Nuclear weapons about a year and a half ago."

So according to your vast knowledge and CIA sources Iraq started developing nuclear weapons After we invaded? I bet that's news to everyone in the US government as well as those in Iraq. And again you are wrong, Iraq was seeking nuclear capabilities before the first guld war. That's part of why we went in, not just to save kuwait. In fact Sadam himself announced that he was only months away from a nuclear device and that he would immediately deploy it to attack Isreal. That's part of why we went in the first time. If we allowed him to attack, Isreal would have opened up with their nukes and a nuclear war would have ensued. My application of knowledge doesn't change facts, which you have failed to present, it simply shows why certain actions were taken. Again you attack me personally and offer sepculation and misinformation, are you ever going to address the discussion with facts or an argument based upon sound logic ? I have logic , facts, and reasoning based upon the scientific study of world politics on my side and I've backed up everything I've said. Your turn to use something other than emotion and a wish that you had a clue.

Dont know if anyone said it.. But only reason we are losing is because WE DONT KNOW WHO WE ARE FIGHTING!!! They arent marked in military uniforms, so finding the target isnt easy untill they are up in your face.

If they were marked.. We outpower them, hands down.

  SomBch,while you seem to be well educated and articulate I have to admit you come across as very irrogant with a demeaning and condensending attitude. I only voice my opinion and dont pretend to know everything,infact I find this thread very interesting as well as educational and am impressed with both yours and Ables point of views however I must say I find your better than everybody attitude a little ridiculous. In my opinion Ables theories or facts seem to be blowing away alot of your rhetoric.But than again I'm a simple man working for the cable company without a college degree so my opinion means nothing in your book.I didnt get a chance to spell check this so please let me know if I made a mistake  o wise one.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

I apologize I ment IRAN began developing nukes after our invasion of IRAQ,iran-iraq you know one of those crazy arab states-while my intention was not to offend ,I do take great pride in knowing the facts on things I decide to ingage people in discussion about. It comes from my education and my occupation which demands accuracy. I very well may come across as arrogant , but Im not ,Im just sure of the facts to which I state. To discount most everything Able has said would take far to much time and effort . But I can assure you that every thing I have stated on here is not from any news sources . Actually most every thing I know is from reading books incuding Against All Enemies by Richard Clarke , The National Intelligence Estimate of Iraq the declassified version,and The Iraq Committees overview of the conflict every bit factual, not to mention several friends that I went to boot camp with that are now civilian intelligence personel, Ill make sure to tell them they dont know anything and that they should call Able. So, I never said I know it all , but the better part of the things that Able posted are so innaccurate its pathetic. Not to worry , I cant see taking this thread any further since its really of no good use to the site and the other members.  No hard feelings and hope to see you all on the trail.   

  USA needs to use the same measures as applied to Japan...... A-Bomb   

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Thanks Yunt.

Yep just like Viet Nam. Regardless of why we're there, you hit the nail on the head with why we haven't destroyed all resistance. Hopefully the ones that want a democratic state instead of a brutal dictatorship will step up themselves and take thier destiny into their own hands. But until then we're going to have to keep towing the line.

Welfare checks.